Lev: I think... I think that the Russian government itself proved who blew up the houses. And it proved itself that it was the one that blew up the houses or, in any case, wants people to think so. Imagine a certain criminal who killed a person, dismembered them, and put them, I don't know, in a refrigerator, as some African dictators used to do. And this became known. Well, someone knows, like, his housekeeper reported it. And, naturally, there are brave people, decisive ones, who say: "Open your refrigerator, let us in, we will look for the corpse of the one you want to eat." Or are already eating for dinner. And he says: "Everyone who comes close to here will be destroyed, no one will enter, I'll put everyone in jail, I'll shoot everyone." And in such a case, if it's slander and a lie, and he didn't kill anyone, then he should be interested: "Here, please, look. Here is his corpse lying right there in the pond, bandits killed him, they couldn't save him." It's roughly the same with the Russian government. It did everything to suppress all information and to forbid, in essence... Well, to forbid mostly unofficially, not to give society any answer and to do everything so that these tragic events in general would be forgotten, written off into history, postponed until some "Greek Kalends." And despite all the inconsistencies, despite all the blatant falsifications, it continues to... In general, it behaved this way and thus, as it were, closed the topic on this. The government's behavior suggests that it acts like this cannibal who doesn't let anyone into his house because he really keeps a corpse there that he slaughtered with his own hands. That's how the government behaves. If it had behaved differently, because it should have, on the contrary, supported the commission, our commission, let's say, allowed access to documents, talked to us in a partner language, explained what was unclear to us and to society, and not hide all the loose ends in murky water, as happened. Therefore, in essence, the answer to the question is the same as in Alexander Litvinenko's book. Only it is, as it were, not legal. Legally, it really hasn't been proven. Well, because the government had quite a lot of opportunities to hide the truth: to make someone silent, to simply kill someone, to intimidate someone, to destroy something. And whether these proofs will be available to anyone in the future, these materials — is a big question. This is the first consideration. And besides, why was our position, in general, justified? Not only because we are citizens and have the right to ask the state questions, and it is obliged to answer. But also because it does not enjoy, unlike citizens, unlike every person, the state does not enjoy the presumption of innocence. Now, I can choose not to answer any such questions because I am a citizen, every person, he enjoys the right to remain silent if he is accused of something. And to remain silent even when the state accuses him or other people accuse him. This is his private business. But the state is a public entity, it is an organ of power, these are organs of power. And organs of power must prove things if questions arise. They do not have the right to remain silent. This is the result of the commission's activities. We wanted, maybe we actually wanted a different result, well, so to speak, we counted on the conscientiousness of those we were addressing. And the government, precisely because of this, because it does not want to be responsible to its people, not to its people, but to the people on whose neck this government sits, that is why everything that happened later is happening, what is happening today, when we have already received the complete political neutralization of all independent subjects, all actors. Politicians are in prisons, there is no freedom of speech, no freedom of information, no freedom of public actions. The country is dragged into a war. The government not only started this war but also wants to see it as an endless condition for its lifelong and posthumous existence. Well, and everything that surrounds us today is precisely this policy, which is also legislatively fixed, which is doubly bad, because when people try to speak, when people in Russia show at least some position not approved by the government, try to declare it, they are punished for it. And this, in general, is the same thing that was then in its infancy. 1999 is the first thing with which Vladimir Putin's power began. He was not yet president, but it was already... He was the chairman of the government then, and three months later on this he became... He built all this current police machine, the police system, completely unconstitutional. He changed the constitution, spoiled it as much as he could. He did everything to stay in power. And the war in Ukraine — it, in general, does not so much set the goal of, let's say, annexing some subjects, that is, so to speak, a side effect, whether they succeed in this or not. But the main goal of the war that is going on today is to strengthen the police regime in Russia. Because as long as the war is going on, they will portray martial law, which is not legally introduced, because even martial law has some boundaries. But here there is violence and aggression against the people, in essence, a civil war against the people, which is going on... It started long before the war, before 2022, and even before 2014 there were already all these prohibitive laws, there were already political prisoners in large numbers. And now in Russia there are more political prisoners than there were under Brezhnev, say, in the Soviet Union. At the same time, under Brezhnev, most of them were in prison under political articles, they were not called political, they, of course, were also considered general criminal ones, but they were in separate institutions, in separate camps. That is, de facto... De jure it was nowhere written that these were political prisoners, but de facto it was Perm-36, Perm-37, there, somewhere in Mordovia there was another one, where political prisoners served their sentences. And now everything is much worse: more prisoners for pure politics, for so-called fakes, that is, for that very freedom of expression, dissemination of information, for extremism, a completely non-legal, in fact, non-judicial... They made a non-judicial concept legal. For slander, dissemination of false information, these fakes, for discrediting the armed forces, for inciting enmity allegedly political or some other kind, for inciting something there allegedly something else, for supporting terrorism allegedly, for supporting extremism and so on. An endless series, a whole powerful legislative base has been set up to restrict rights and freedoms.

Interviewer: I would like to ask you... So, you describe how the commission's work somehow... Well, after today, yes, with the commission, how it generally led to what we have now. What were your most surprising disclosures when you worked on the commission? Or was it all expected for you, or were there some moments when "oh!"?

Lev: Yes, there were such moments when... The first moment was when Prosecutor General Vladimir Ustinov called and said: "I will give you what you are asking for," despite the ban. This was completely unexpected. When in Ryazan we went to the police station, the police chief helped us, he even called from outside his station, made an agreement, called that person, that local policeman who was the first to climb into the basement. He was not obliged to do this, not obliged, it was not his subordinate. But he showed, in general, courage, because there were deputies there and everything. And everyone understands what kind of material this is, what kind of topic this is. And then, of course, it wasn't like it is now, in 2002, but still everything was already clear with these explosions, who... Everything there was not very... Especially in Ryazan, there was this pilgrimage of journalists on this topic, everyone everything there... Every resident knew that something was wrong there. These were truly surprising cases. Well, and there were other similar smaller cases when government representatives helped us. It was precisely unexpected. Well, I remember two such vivid cases. Well, there were some others there, that's no longer... When we simply received answers to some requests quickly, faster than even the law requires. Purely not some political requests, but everyone understood everything. Or, for example, another example: a person in the "Podkova" store, formerly "Kolchuga," where allegedly this one cartridge was bought, who also no one was pulling his tongue, who felt it was his duty to tell the truth. You can't pin this to the case, but it gives us an internal... It gave an internal conviction that... We were already convinced that this plan-assignment is a fake, written already after, most likely, after they went and did it, in order to then give it to this tame journalist Adelkhanov and publish it, and pretend that everything there was allegedly... There are no questions. Well, somehow there was such a shade that they overdid it a little. They allegedly had an assignment, let's note this in parentheses, yesterday we just didn't finish talking about it, to behave a bit provocatively so that citizens there and representatives especially of the police there and some other people, where they... So that they would pay attention. The license plate was taped over, it was visible that it was taped over.

Interviewer: And do you think they wanted to help you, but then changed their minds? Or did they just not understand themselves how important this information would be for you, so as soon as they realized, they then fell silent? How did you feel that they wanted you to be able to disclose things?

Lev: Well, such a case, it seems to me, these two cases in Ryazan. With Vladimir Ustinov, I'm not sure why he suddenly called. Maybe indeed...

Interviewer: Vladimir Ustinov was the Prosecutor General?

Lev: Yes, back then. He is still in a high position now, he... This is not at all there... He acted this way, it did not affect his fate in any way. He was the Prosecutor General for several more years, then Yuri Chaika came after him. And he is still the presidential envoy in the Southern District. This is, in general, unlike the representatives in the regions who were there before, this is great power, it is, in essence, a viceroy in the Southern Federal District. That is, the whole Caucasus, everything, he has great powers there. Therefore, Vladimir Ustinov is on top. Well, from what considerations he acted — it's unclear. It's unclear. Maybe in order to somehow... He considered it safe, nothing would happen to him for it, he consulted with someone and called. Or maybe purely impulsively. But the one who really wanted to help was the head of the police station. But I cannot name his last name, it would be wrong. Although, probably, he is already retired, because 25 years have passed. Well, still, it's not good.

Interviewer: Let's go back to Nikita Chekulin.

Lev: Aha, now we'll go back to Nikita Chekulin. I also probably wanted to clarify two points... Firstly, I wanted to clarify such a principled position regarding the fact that we did not write a report. And I generally think that... Well, it was possible to write one, there was no crime in that. It's just that it wasn't clear then, as it were... Who would start publishing it? There was no one who would offer to take on the publication, take on some PR for this matter, promotion. This is, after all, some big work. Those who were ready to pay, in the person of Boris Berezovsky and his team, they would not have been satisfied with what we would have written. They would not have supported it. And from other sides, there were no other options. Everyone knew that the commission existed, no one was interested. Only journalists asked: "Will you have a report?" But they won't write it for us.

Interviewer: Did you decide not to finish it or did the case just drag on and it didn't get written?

Lev: Well, if someone had supported not so much even the work, but the work too... There were no volunteers, no one was interested in this. Therefore, we limited ourselves to the fact that everything that could be written, we say in words in interviews. There were a lot of interviews over these years. Well, how many — several dozen interviews with Sergei Adamovich Kovalyov. Of course, they turned to him most of all while he was alive. And so he was also asked: "Where is the report?" He said that our position is such and such, such and such. Well, the report, he said, probably, maybe, will be someday, maybe not, I don't know, he answered differently in different years. But he spoke about what the commission had come to. Besides, in general, about the bad faith of the government, about its anti-legal position, about... Well, everything that I won't repeat, about what we, in general, can summarize as a result.

Interviewer: And are there additional disclosures in these recordings that... Well, which, for example... Well, which they don't know, which you now...

Lev: Additional in the sense of someone else?

Interviewer: Well, I mean, well, this volume of information...

Lev: Ah, that we didn't... Well, there is a lot there that is not directly related to these explosions. Or we didn't go through all these... Unlike Alexander Litvinenko and Yuri Felshtinsky, who, as I already said, took a larger volume, took it wider simply in their book, what happened in the early 90s, there under the control of the FSB this department in which Alexander Litvinenko worked, which carried out such special assignments. They write about these things there. Therefore, they have more material. We, in general, have just such things for everything that, well, are not on the topic, so to speak.

Interviewer: You say that there is this information that needs to be passed on to the next generation. Wouldn't you like to disclose everything now?

Lev: But I'm already saying everything. That is, there is nothing there that could be hidden and kept in a pocket, there in one's bosom, to be used later. Everything that we have worked on, everything, in general, was used in our public speeches. Sergei Adamovich Kovalyov was essentially an active person until his very death. He was 92 years old, his 92nd year, when he died, but he was in a clear mind. Well, the last year he was a bit weak, it was already a bit hard for him, but so for many years after he stopped being a deputy, he remained, in general, in the political field. Only they didn't give him a platform anymore, the further it went, the less. Only foreign journalists asked him, Radio Liberty. He didn't even appear on "Echo of Moscow," they didn't invite him there. Or very rarely and on very such safe questions for the policy of "Echo." But I didn't finish, I'll say once more about the report. The government should have written the report, not us. And we think that... Just like it was for September 11, for example. There was a huge joint report, it was even, I think, translated into Russian, and a huge edition, a thick book was published in the States, where all the materials on the investigation, on all these fates, on... Well, everything that the investigation worked on in the case of this event, everything is public, available on a special website. This is their task. We could have given our small... And maybe it wouldn't even have been required. But with us, it's impossible to imagine such a thing. Aha, well, that's it, so now Nikita Chekulin.

Interviewer: In general, this question... So, you gave me a large document yesterday regarding the investigation. I read it partially. It was also interesting, well, of course, there were absolutely different statements regarding the content of these explosives and so on. Well, tell us then about Nikita Chekulin and, maybe, a little more about the general question.

Lev: Well, just a few words, because if you feel the need to touch upon this material, then everything is very detailed there, everything is absolutely correct. Yes. And if this in turn gives rise to some more questions, well, we can get in touch via any means of communication, we can quite talk on this topic via Telegram, via messenger, well, as it will be convenient. Well, I'll clarify then. This is Nikita Chekulin himself... Well, he was in a difficult position when we talked to him. I don't want to say anything bad against him, I perfectly understand his behavior. The thing is that at the time of our meeting he, the former acting director of this joint-stock company... No, I'm lying, lying, lying, it's not a joint-stock company. Former general director Nikita Chekulin of the state unitary enterprise GUP, unitary enterprise "Roskonversvzryvtsentr," with such a name in one word. He, due to complex various circumstances, I'll say a couple of words about them now, ended up in emigration with his son, forced into flight literally, a political refugee in some sense, he wasn't one, but in essence, in London. While his wife and daughter were in Moscow, and they were prevented from leaving. They were threatened and prevented from leaving. And so, being a family torn into two parts and having no opportunity to fix this situation in any way, because the security agencies literally pressured him to come, to return. And when he returned, on the condition that he disavows everything he said there. And he did all that. I cannot judge him. He told very interesting things, a whole detective story, up to how he ran through the forest, hiding. They could have quite either killed him or put him in jail, in those times rather even killed him. He had already said goodbye to life more than once there. He can be believed, and it seems all this is true, maybe not all of it, not in all details. What is the essence? This state office, which was created for the purpose, as it were, as it were, so that military productions would be converted into some civilian ones. Well, the name says: "Conversion," "Explosives Center," to transfer the production of explosives from military to civilian needs. Well, like this, although why a separate office is needed for this is unclear. A dark office. Initially, it was most likely some kind of cover for some not entirely legal actions with various kinds of explosive substances. At some point Nikita Chekulin, who was in leadership positions in various such not very large enterprises, well, an administrator like that, a manager, semi-state, semi-private, he was appointed acting director of this organization, where he had not worked before. And what is also interesting is that this office itself at some point was initially under the Ministry of Internal Affairs, as it were, for some reason. It passed into the subordination of the Ministry of Education, Education and Science. Therefore, maybe, somehow indirectly some relation... But it did not want to subordinate. And when Vladimir Filippov became the Minister of Education, there was such a minister, he found time to reach this office, which previously the ministry did not pay attention to, it was on its own. He conducted an audit there. And it turned out that huge deals were taking place there with explosive substances, explosive substances that were illegal. The money goes who knows where. That is, a completely such kind of Panama, some kind of cover for some illegal activity. They revealed massive violations in reporting there, huge ones. They removed the director who was there, some guy. They appointed this one, he was an acquaintance of Vladimir Filippov, and knowing him as an honest person, he appointed this Nikita Chekulin as acting director.

Interviewer: The director is not Nikita Chekulin?

Lev: Nikita Chekulin, Nikita Chekulin. Not Chekalin, but Nikita Chekulin. Nikita Chekulin, yes.

Interviewer: He was removed?

Lev: No, the previous one was removed. And the previous one, yes, right, the previous one was Shchukin. And Shchukin, who carried out all these deals there who knows where, who knows on what basis to some intermediate partners, where it went further is unknown. That is, a channel existed, roughly speaking, for pumping tons, tens of tons went who knows where, who knows for what needs of explosive substances. Including hexogen. And Minister Vladimir Filippov tried to transfer this case somehow to law enforcement agencies, that is, so that there would be an audit already, he turned to the Investigative Committee... There was no Investigative Committee, he turned to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, he turned to the Prosecutor General's Office. Well, since he is a minister, his appeals were accepted, put under the rug, nothing was done. The only thing he could do was to remove this Shchukin and appoint a new person as acting director, a fresh one, having nothing to do with explosives, Nikita Chekulin. And so that he, then, would be his, as it were, man there. The people who worked under Shchukin, they immediately started a campaign to get rid of this Nikita Chekulin.

Interviewer: Well, so Nikita Chekulin himself was not in this, not involved himself, but he knew about it?

Lev: No, absolutely. Well, of course, he received all the materials, all the documents. And as a director, he had to report only to the Minister of Education, to no one else. They immediately unleashed a pack of police audits on him for all possible reasons, tried to slip him some bribes, and there were anonymous threats, and they created such circumstances so that he would be held accountable for negligence. Well, some instructions were not carried out, allegedly he did not give them internally. That is, the person was immediately put in impossible, completely unbearable working conditions. He was there for about six months.

Interviewer: And then he ran away?

Lev: And then simply his friends... He was also such a person himself, since the minister appointed him, a personal friend of his, a person with some connections. Through his sources he found out, some informant of his simply called him and said that you must disappear for a few months, otherwise I do not guarantee that you will remain alive. He fled to some village, it was summer, he even lived in the forest. And then he starved there, was afraid to go to the village, went out onto the road, wanted to hail a car, to get to a store or some money, so that... Well, I don't know, in short, he already needed to do something for life support. And he told very impressively how he went out onto the road and immediately a car like that drives by, in a form resembling a police one. He thought: "That's it." He was already saying goodbye to freedom and life. It drives past, doesn't even stop. He says: "It's as if I was resurrected." And in the end he managed to flee to London. And he came to Boris Abramovich Berezovsky, who immediately took him into his stride. But because his wife remained in Russia, he returned. And, most likely, the condition of the deal was his repentance, expressed in the fact that he wrote three books... Two, two, two, it seems, two for sure, maybe something else, I don't know. He wrote two books: one against Boris Berezovsky, exposing what he was doing there in London, I haven't read it. And I haven't read the second one, the second one is as if about Boris Berezovsky's circle. Maybe there is something about us there too, we... It's quite possible, because we talked with him for a long time. I haven't read it.

Interviewer: And when you talked in London, he told this story, what... He told it himself?

Lev: He told it, of course.

Interviewer: And then, when he returned to Moscow, did he change his version?

Lev: Well, I haven't read his book, I don't know how he presents all this there. And therefore I cannot say here how it all went further after us, after our communication. He was in London for at least another year, that is, until the end of 2003. He periodically called me and asked to take some actions. Sergei Adamovich Kovalyov and I discussed it and couldn't think of anything to really help him. Because he wasn't asking for money there, or something like that, he was asking to somehow get to the FSB... But we didn't have such channels. And it would have been even worse, we would have only spoiled things.

Interviewer: What Patrick said, that when he returned to Moscow, he completely denied all this?

Lev: Yes, well, of course. Well, yes, since he wrote the books, there, of course, everything... Everything was blamed on Boris Berezovsky in the end, on his evil machinations. But for our story with the house bombings, this is important, because it is quite possible that the hexogen was from there along this line. And here even, as it were, territorially by the exposition itself, it is quite eloquent. This office — a small one-story house — is located almost in the courtyard right under the windows of the FSB, the central building on Lubyanka. It seems they created it, they transferred it under the neutral cover of the Ministry of Education. And all these pumpings of terrorists, non-terrorists, maybe something went abroad too, took place there. That is, not maybe, but exactly according to the papers: this to Belarus, somewhere else, from Belarus somewhere else further. That is, it was such a corrupt one on the one hand, most likely... But when he was removed... That is, when he fled, and Vladimir Filippov was also removed, a new government came, some other guy was already the minister there, they brought back Shchukin. Shchukin returned and continued his activities. Although there was a criminal case against Shchukin, what Vladimir Filippov had achieved. But this case was passed, as they say, from Pontius to Pilate. First it was in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, then the FSB took it, then it was divided in two. That is, they did everything so that Shchukin's case would go nowhere. As a result, he was sentenced to some not very... 25 thousand rubles fine, or something like that, some ridiculous fine. And he was immediately amnestied. He is considered to have no criminal record. And he again started... He became the director. But that was also a long time ago, I don't know how it is now. Time goes on. Но в какие-то годы были... Well, in 2003 he was already... Well, да, да.

Interviewer: If after all Shchukin... Well, there was such an accusation that he was selling hexogen. Could it be that he was actually selling it to some small entrepreneurs? Because, well, in principle, one of the moments that gives the impression that it was precisely a state operation is because they found hexogen. And hexogen in small quantities...

Lev: Well, yes, they write about it there.

Interviewer: But if Shchukin was there, who it's proven was reselling in such small batches, then maybe this negates this option?

Lev: I don't venture to judge here. This is after all a rather complex such... Work more related to business, I am a bit weak in this part of the legislation and all that. And in this case, everything I'm telling is according to what Nikita Chekulin himself told me.

Interviewer: In Ryazan there was Natalya Yukhnova, who overheard... Well, she worked at the telephone exchange. And she somehow listened to, well, that telephone conversation. Did you try to find her, to talk to her about this?

Lev: She wasn't working there anymore.

Interviewer: Ah, so you couldn't find her?

Lev: Well, yes, find... We didn't try to look for her outside of work. I called the exchange, they said she had already quit. When we were getting ready for the trip, I was finding out after all... Well, maybe it was, of course, a mistake, it's hard to say. They already... Well, I didn't say that Sergei Adamovich Kovalyov and I were going there and so on, but they could have suspected something. We... They see the phone from which the call was made. I don't remember, I probably called from a Duma phone. In short, they hid this technician from us. And she, apparently, quit not because of us, in any case.