Lev: And finally, the last place we visited in Ryazan was the police station in whose jurisdiction that building on Novosyolov Street is located. We arrived, and there was a very smart and pleasant chief, the only one who spoke to us like a human being. Because General Sergeyev, of course, answered and behaved very politically and correctly, but you could see in his eyes that he wished we were dead. And his assistant sitting there was the same. And the chief told us that the first person to go in there was a policeman, but not one of ours, he said. "I can call him. Walk around for an hour and a half or two, he'll come, and he'll talk to you." Specifically, the one who first went into the basement. We waited. We also talked to the chief, but at that time he wasn't working in Ryazan yet, so he gave general impressions... well, he's a good man, yes. We talked about everything that didn't concern him or his biography. He didn't have to lie or anything. This policeman arrives. I didn't even bother to look up his name because it's better not to name him, I think. We have it, but given the current situation in Russia, it's better not to name him. And he immediately tells us: "Actually," he says, "I'm not authorized to talk to you. And this chief isn't mine," he says. "And in general, all questions, as we're taught," he says, "all questions about police work go through the press service. Only the press service is authorized to officially speak with everyone." Well, we told him: "Well, of course, it's your right to speak or not to speak, we are a public commission. After all, there's a Duma deputy standing before you." He says: "I'll consult with the chief," he says. "We all respect him, he's such a good chief here in this station." So he went and consulted. He comes back and says: "Okay, I'll talk to you," he says. "Only, the questions I don't want to answer, I won't answer." Please. And a very interesting conversation started about how he went in there. We were clarifying things about the weather, I don't remember now what he said. And about this and that, which was generally known. And then Kovalyov asks him: "Well, what did you see in the bags? Sugar, or did it look like sugar?" He says: "I won't answer that question." And that was the best answer to the question. Kovalyov said later that he even felt a little ashamed that we put him in such an idiotic position. Но it was, of course, very important to hear that. This is again about the sugar. And in general, it's no less... here, despite all the difficulty in determining what was there—whether it's part of how the FSB Blows Up Russia or if it's a Chechen trail. Ryazan is a very important moment in that sense. That's why the prosecutor's office is looking at Ryazan now, because it can't say everything. Even in what I read to you, that the exercises were conducted improperly. But if it's unknown what they were supposed to lead to, then everything is unclear. Who was being taught, what were they being taught, what was the goal of these exercises, other than making the people keep quiet and believe only what they're told and listen to and read only what the authorities approve. Besides everything else, we sincerely tried... I probably called this journalist, the editor-in-chief of Versiya, Rustam Arifdzhanov, about 15 times. So that we could meet with him.

Interviewer: Was this in Ryazan?

Lev: No, it concerns Ryazan, but it's already outside, in Moscow. Arifdzhanov is in Moscow. He saw the plan. His article is also very interesting. And what the Prosecutor General's Office writes is all the same, right from the same piece of paper. Kovalyov later received this plan from Prosecutor General Ustinov. Yes, indeed, everything is like that. But there's no end there. It ends with them planting it and leaving. And that's it. And it's unclear what was supposed to happen next. Okay, if it was sugar, maybe that sugar is still lying somewhere? It's been 25 years. There was no order to remove it from there. It doesn't seem to explode anymore. But this uncertainty is very strange. So, I call this Arifdzhanov, even Kovalyov called—he doesn't pick up the phone, the mobile number they gave me doesn't answer. I call the editorial office and speak to the secretary. She says: "He's away." And for the whole year, I call him regularly every two or three weeks. He's gone abroad, he... in short, he was running from us. He understood perfectly well what we wanted to hear from him. Who gave it to him, because that was important from the point of view of why a pocket journalist who writes on assignment gets it, but a Duma deputy doesn't. Regarding Moscow, of course, there are many different facts. And here, if we talk about how they worked with our commission, one of the important points is that they, in the media, not just for us, initially after the terrorist attacks... well, the so-called or not terrorist attacks—it's a terrorist attack, whoever blew it up, in any case, it's a terrorist attack. They created a lot of false leads. All sorts of branches where you can go on and on and get nowhere. We... I have a letter, for example, from a prisoner in some colony, serving a sentence, a special regime colony, that is, for serious... for especially serious crimes. And this person, just as the commission began to work, writes that "I... I have information about the apartment bombings that I haven't told anyone, I want to give it only to the commission. I only trust it." The letter was sent through, as is expected for prisoners' letters, through the administration. There is official censorship there. It's not like dropping it in a box for your mom or girlfriend, and she drops it in a civilian box. That's what prisoners do when they want to write something the administration shouldn't read. This letter went through the administration, they censored it. That is, the person is in prison, it's all known that he knows all sorts of state secrets, and he writes that he doesn't trust anyone. In our colonies, such a thing is impossible. So it's clearly an obvious provocation. And there were other similar cases. But mostly these provocations, these dead-end false leads, were done through the media, of course. Some fortune-tellers who came to Novaya Gazeta or somewhere else and spoke two days before the explosions and told Major Izmailov, the journalist, or someone else that they saw something, heard something, participated in something. The most interesting character among them, the biggest specimen, is a certain citizen named Mylnikov. Or Melnikov... Mylnikov, Mylnikov. He had been in prison many times, for murder, for robbery. He got out and was under investigation again. He was under house arrest, which is also a bit strange. He writes that he has connections in Chechen circles. This wasn't to us... there was no commission yet, right after the explosions. He said, "I went to the Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper and said that houses would soon start collapsing in Moscow. No one took me seriously, but I wanted people not to die." And this is what he was accused of. He says: "I know who blew up the houses in Moscow." We even invited him to a commission meeting. And so he was on trial at that time. His lawyer was a fairly well-known lawyer, a good acquaintance of mine—Evgeny Chernousov. He helped us with permission for him to visit the Duma, and we talked to him in the Duma. He came, this Mylnikov. And he was accused under Article 205—terrorism. But he wasn't accused of blowing up the houses or of knowing something. He was accused of allegedly calling various government bodies, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the prosecutor's office, and saying that if a woman with a Jewish surname... what was it... Zatsman, I think. If Tatyana Zatsman—I might be mixing up the surname, well, it doesn't matter, a surname of that type—is not released within a week, houses will start blowing up in Moscow. She wasn't released, and the houses... There. He said she was his beloved woman, and all that. But he himself, of course, didn't want to blow up any houses, but he knew it was being prepared and could have said so, but didn't. He knew those who were organizing it. Therefore, he wanted to use this to free his Zatsman, who was in prison either for drugs or for theft, something like that. Or for robbery. Thus, knowing that houses would be blown up, he wanted to use that to free his girlfriend. He was tried. But since... and he was tried very strangely. Under Article 205, but as an unfinished crime. For preparation for... And so he said this, and that meant he was preparing to commit a terrorist act. Article 205 is a terrorist act in the Criminal Code. Here a question arises, again finding no answer. Chernousov, the lawyer, confirmed all this to us. In his sentence, there is not a word about those blown-up houses. But that he threatened—he threatened. He called the police, the president, I don't know who, he called government bodies. He threatened a terrorist attack—get the article. Because he himself said, and he repeated at the commission: "I knew, I won't say now. I knew those people, they're not here anymore, that is, they're not anywhere at all." He said he wouldn't say anything, but he confirmed that he knew. But the investigation and the court were not interested in this at all. Well, and the most interesting story, because of which the telebridge was convened, the one shown in the photograph in the newspaper, where we were communicating with Berezovsky. That is, of course, a separate story, maybe we should go over it now and maybe we'll limit ourselves to that for today. We'll see. The fact is that according to the official version, the apartment bombings were committed by an organized group of Chechen terrorists led by Achimez Gochiyayev. With Gochiyayev, what's his name... Achimez. Achimez. A group of Chechen terrorists led by Achimez Gochiyayev, which included Adam Dekkushev, Yusuf Krymshamkhalov, Krymshamkhalov, and several other people. At the same time, it's completely unclear why this is a group of Chechen terrorists if Gochiyayev is a Karachay, not a Chechen. A completely different people, a different republic. Dekkushev and Krymshamkhalov are Karachays. Why this is a Chechen criminal group if they are Karachays is not explained in any way. And yet, well, it's known, of course, that many Caucasian peoples, individual representatives who wanted to fight, underwent training in Chechnya, when under Maskhadov, even not under Maskhadov, under Dudayev, the first Chechen president, under whom the first war against Chechnya began. But in no way... yes, they could have trained there. But they would never put a Karachay in place of a Chechen as the commander or organizer of a group.

Interviewer: That's exactly what we wanted... yes, because it seems that basically all those who were accused, they are not Chechens, they are Karachays.

Lev: Karachays, yes. Allegedly Achimez Gochiyayev is a real person—this seems to be confirmed, yes, undoubtedly he is real. But that he was a commander somewhere and he developed plans—that is very implausible. The fact is that this telebridge in London—this already concerns Moscow more than Ryazan. Because this public discussion of ours with London was organized because Litvinenko and Felshtinsky wrote to us that they received a personal letter from Gochiyayev. They went to one of the Caucasian republics, Felshtinsky himself went with someone else, they met with this Gochiyayev. He's like officially on the run, he's on the international wanted list as an organizer. They met with him and recorded a video. And here is his letter, where he writes what really happened, how he was framed, how he ended up being the fall guy, how he's not a terrorist at all, although he's a Muslim and all that. But... and this "but" also applies to the book "FSB Blows Up Russia." The journalists, of course, when they heard this, started shouting: "Show us the tape!" They ask Felshtinsky. He says: "I'll show it." And suddenly he disappeared from the screen. We're talking there with Litvinenko, and others... Berezovsky himself wasn't there.

Interviewer: Was this in Moscow?

Lev: No, we were in Moscow, and they were in London. And we went to London before that, when we talked to all of them. The trip to London... Yes, just in parentheses, the trip to London yielded nothing, except that we were convinced that Berezovsky was lying to us blatantly. And he answered questions very interestingly. I'm in parentheses now, I'll return to Gochiyayev now, otherwise it'll slip away, I'm afraid. I should have said it right away when I was talking about Berezovsky. When we ask him very specific questions about all these events there, this and that, how you... He answers with such a... there's a recording device, well, a normal one, well, I don't remember which one we had. We recorded everyone who agreed. Felshtinsky spoke there, we recorded him, everything is audible. Berezovsky starts speaking in such a voice that he could be heard separately—nothing was recorded. As if he had no voice at all. That is, it was clearly... and he was very loud-voiced when we sat in the restaurant with him later. He took us around London, in his estate... manor near London there he lives like a count, he lived. We were even at his wife's birthday party. So, that's in parentheses. So, if we move on to Achimez Gochiyayev. Everyone is sitting there, about 20 journalists, at least, waiting for them to show us the videotape. A videotape is indeed more convincing. Where this Gochiyayev is speaking, saying something and talking to someone. It turns out that the tape won't open. It never did open, and the whole thing died down. This, unfortunately, is characteristic of the book itself. That you wait for where the final exposure of black magic will be. Felshtinsky said something...

Interviewer: I wanted... I also... so, let's return to the questions for a bit. We wanted... so we found out that Tatyana Koroleva is Gochiyayev's girlfriend.

Lev: Yes, yes, yes.

Interviewer: We found out that on September 10th in Ryazan... well, at least a person with the name Tatyana Koroleva was arrested on September 10th in Ryazan.

Lev: Other than what I saw in the papers, that she was a bookkeeper for him somewhere. She was apparently his girlfriend, with whom he lived. And she was a lawyer by education. And she was involved... she wasn't involved in anything criminal, apparently, judging by... no one accused her of anything. I don't know, I haven't heard that she was taken into custody or arrested.

Interviewer: Well, we just found a person, well, it could be a completely different person. Just the name Tatyana Koroleva was arrested on September 10th because she had some problem with her passport.

Lev: Well, that's a question of Tatya... it's a very common name, here one can of course... I'm not ready to say anything. Although according to all these facts, even the journalists were disappointed, and the articles in the newspapers, and this one too, which I gave you, were all about the mountain giving birth to a mouse. They all wrote: "We don't know about the commission, but the journalists were dissatisfied with all this." It turned out to be some kind of comedy in the end. And we have Gochiyayev's letter, a copy, well, how do we know whose hand it was written by. But we, of course, want to believe. Felshtinsky is generally a scholar, a historian. Well, but he's on... he was on the payroll, he didn't even hide it, of Berezovsky. But that's no worse than being on Putin's payroll now, let's say. Well, no one among us condemned him for that. But if "FSB Blows Up Russia" is an image, but it's written there in black and white that these are proofs, direct proofs. And for example, can Gochiyayev's letter... well, it was published in Novaya Gazeta, but also with reservations, we insisted on that then. They listened to us, that this is presumably Gochiyayev's letter.

Interviewer: And basically, what does he say in the letter?

Lev: He says that he just ended up being the fall guy. He rented basements in Moscow, not in those houses, but in others, where... where hexogen was brought. That is, he was subletting... oh no, he rented them, and there was his former Karachay classmate Karmishin, a person by the name of Karmishin. There. He says that he is actually the main culprit, because he was my friend, a school friend from Karachayevsk, a Russian from...

Interviewer: We just wanted to ask... well, what did the commission find out about Karmishin? Well, we've already talked a bit about Gochiyayev. Also Vladimir Romanovich Laypanov, who was killed... actually Laypanov was killed. Well, he, in the sense that he was already... well, apparently not the real Laypanov. What do we have as a possible explanation for Tatyana Koroleva's presence in Ryazan on the 10th?

Lev: He said he doesn't know anything about it.

Interviewer: Yes, quite. But it's in the police records that we found. If we return to that... well, for us it was naturally interesting that we found that Tatyana Koroleva was arrested. How do you think, is there any...

Lev: Well, there wasn't... if it's the real Koroleva, well, they could have easily arrested her with the goal of putting pressure on her. What she was doing in Ryazan, I certainly can't say anything. But the fact that if she was indeed living with Gochiyayev and worked in some firm, and he fled and he's the main terrorist... well, I don't know now if he's alive or not, but then he was alive apparently, they could naturally have detained her as a witness. Well, there is no such status for detention.

Interviewer: Well, it was a problem with the passport.

Lev: With us, yes, either swearing or... detaining a person is not difficult. In Russia, it costs nothing. Anyone can end up there.

Interviewer: Well, about Karmishin...

Lev: About Karmishin, there are no... we have a paper, indeed the name Karmishin. I don't think I copied it, but I can give you some more documents in electronic form later. No trace of Karmishin was found. As for where he went after the explosions—it's unclear. Even Trepashkin couldn't find anything, although he's an experienced detective, so to speak. He was an investigator in the FSB, the lawyer Trepashkin.

Interviewer: And did you find out anything about Romanovich?

Lev: Also. Well, I didn't deal with this Romanovich. Romanovich. I only saw what was written in the newspapers. Somehow I just don't have information about him, I don't know anything. I know that it was all over the place, it was important. But I still focused more on Ryazan. Moscow was handled by those who are no longer here. Yushenkov himself, his assistant was also a member of the commission, Yushenkov's assistant. I'm not sure if he's alive, he was already elderly, 25 years have passed. I don't know how to reach him if he's alive. Well, he was about 70 then.

Interviewer: Excuse me, who is that?

Lev: Assistant Khamid Dalmayev. Dalmayev. Yushenkov's assistant.

Interviewer: Well, you think he's not in Moscow?

Lev: 25 years have passed. After Yushenkov's death, I haven't seen him once. I have no idea where to look for him. It could be... It would be interesting for you to talk to Valentin Gefter. He... the trial of Dekkushev and Krymshamkhalov, two terrorists who were caught, who indeed most likely participated in something. Although the initial confessions... well, they're worth nothing with us, they're beaten out, if necessary, there will be any testimony. But he only admitted that he drove the truck for money, that he admitted from Volgodonsk. Volgodonsk—Dekkushev. He was the first to be detained, Adam Dekkushev. So, by the court, when the two of them were tried in Moscow, the Moscow City Court...

Interviewer: That's Dekkushev and Krymshamkhalov?

Lev: Krymshamkhalov and Dekkushev, yes. Gefter was involved. He talked to their lawyer. The lawyers were appointed for Krymshamkhalov, and for Dekkushev, the family hired some lawyer by agreement. That is, his own lawyer. There. And they... the case was closed. That was one of our questions: why was the case closed? What's secret there? The whole country should know, this concerns key moments. Everything was classified. But Dekkushev's lawyer reported some individual pieces of information. Gefter... he has a good memory, he remembers well. I can give you his coordinates.

Interviewer: Good.

Lev: But he's in Moscow. But he travels periodically. He's certainly about 80 years old now. But he has a good memory.

Interviewer: What's the surname?

Lev: Gefter. Valentin Gefter. He's the one with these... if everything that concerns the trial of Dekkushev, Krymshamkhalov. Well, and he might have some impressions of his own, we went to London together. There. I have my own, so to speak, vision. Well, he and I were in solidarity that...

Interviewer: I'll ask you again later, I'll write everything down.

Lev: Yes, yes. Good. Just make a note or I'll make a note for myself not to forget to give you his coordinates.

Interviewer: So, we were talking about how you looked for a witness in Ryazan. You just said now that you mainly dealt with Ryazan, and others dealt with Moscow. So it turns out that you yourself didn't look for a witness, for example, on Guryanov Street or on Kashirskoye?

Lev: No, I only talked on the phone. What I actually... what went through me was that I made an agreement with a person who went to the commission. Three people refused to go, whose phone numbers I had, which Yushenkov gave me. Beyond that, I realized it was useless. One was found—and that's good.

Interviewer: That one was found in Ryazan?

Lev: No, in Moscow. In Moscow, I also did something. For example, regarding Gochiyayev, what's interesting. He writes in his handwritten message addressed to the commission, addressed to us, as it were, he wrote then that "I, Achimez Gochiyayev, was born there, studied there, then moved to Moscow to study at a technical school, a college. I trained as such-and-such, worked there." That is, he writes everything about himself. We then with Trepashkin... Trepashkin took one part, I took the other. We started checking all this. That is, if it's a fabrication, it will be a fabrication. He studied at one school, but writes about another there... We... I sent about 10 requests, probably no less, for all these positions. And Trepashkin also there... on taxes, where more skill is needed, because on taxes it's a secret, a tax secret and all. Well, he, as a lawyer and an old FSB man, he knows, Trepashkin, how to get in there, get information from various acquaintances. All the information contained in this letter, despite all our doubt, despite the fact that this tape turned out to be some kind of non-existent thing... anything can happen, of course, no one was able to see this conversation with Gochiyayev. But everything he writes, everything was confirmed. We received letters about where he's from and everything... there isn't a single mistake. This, of course, also in itself, I'll say again, doesn't prove that he... from the fact that he was drunk in the tenth grade, got drunk, it doesn't follow that he blew up houses in Moscow.

Interviewer: From the residents of those houses in Moscow and Volgodonsk, were there any witnesses who were ready to come forward, to talk to the commission?

Lev: I don't know how things stand today, after all, 25 years have passed.

Interviewer: Well, did they find witnesses then?

Lev: The Morozov children... not children, but the Morozov sisters. There. Their lawyer... they hired Trepashkin as their representative, a lawyer-representative, who would represent their interests as victims. Their mother died, I think, if I'm not mistaken. I can't say for sure, but they lived in America and live in America, the two sisters. Someone of theirs died, I think their mother died in one of those houses. They were from Kashirskoye Highway, I think. Well, one of the two, either Kashirka...

Interviewer: That's the one they made a film about, I think, right?

Lev: Yes, the one they made a film about, the film was made by what's his name... Nekrasov, Andrei Nekrasov.

Interviewer: Well, so they certainly, yes, they said something. Besides... well, were there other witnesses who were ready to say something to the commission?

Lev: No, there were no others from those houses. I personally... other than attempts to invite them to the commission... and I suggested: "If you don't want to, you can come and talk, maybe you can tell us something, some of your impressions of what happened before that, after that." We positioned ourselves, and not only positioned ourselves but tried to do something, that we were socially ready to support... socially support these people. Well, socially, we weren't going to hand out money, of course, we don't have any. But for example, that same Karinna, Moskalenko probably told you, she said: "I'm ready to be your representative in court for for for recovery for the suffering caused." That's what... and after all, when there was NTV, this program we were talking about, the main thing there was: "Come on, pay us compensation for what you did to us." Everyone was shouting that. Well, and then we finally caught one old woman who was ready, and even she didn't sign anything in the end. "I'll think about it, I'll write to you." And so everything... naturally no one appeared.

Interviewer: I remember... well, there was... I don't remember either which building was being discussed, but just not the Ryazan one. There were some boys or well, young guys who saw boxes being carried into the house. Well, that's ah, that was Guryanov Street. Well, before the first explosion. Well, there was some group there.

Lev: There was something, there was something. I don't know how to approach that.

Interviewer: And the commission didn't try to contact them?

Lev: No, to be honest, no. Good. So.

Interviewer: If we're still on the topic of Karachay and Krymshamkhalov, it's worth mentioning that they got another 10 years in prison in 2018.

Lev: Is that Dekkushev and Krymshamkhalov?

Interviewer: Yes, also a good question. So it turns out that in 2018, Dekkushev and Krymshamkhalov, they got another 10 years in prison.

Lev: While in prison?

Interviewer: Yes.

Lev: You'd have to ask Gefter about that. I'm not aware. I just don't know.

Interviewer: Try to contact Valentin Mikhailovich.

Interviewer: And was Gefter their lawyer?

Lev: He's not a lawyer, he's a human rights activist. Yes, he's the director of the Institute for Human Rights, Human Rights World Institute.

Interviewer: Well, did he represent them?

Lev: Oh no, he wasn't their representative, he just communicates... communicated for a long time with their lawyer even after they went to prison. I... maybe he doesn't know, because 10 years when they gave them those... But in principle, they got life, I think. Where another 10 years?

Interviewer: They got 20 years, and then they added another 10 in 2018.

Lev: Ah, well, probably yes, probably yes. Well, I somehow don't remember that, because... So, then... excuse me, can I step away for a minute, a little pause.

Interviewer: We'll take a pause. We'll continue in a moment.